One supposes that what was lacking is demonstrated by the translation room itself: if the way cannot be named, what one wants is a fellow-traveler. It is the guide and example who clarifies the content of the letter.
Your point reminds me of a history: when the Anglo-French forces breached the Old Summer Palace 圆明园 in 1860, they found the advanced artillery and delicate mechanical gifts that Lord Macartney had presented to Emperor Qianlong nearly 70 years earlier. They were sitting in a storeroom, completely untouched.
Triying to unpackage Francois Jullien "method" i think that actually the best strategy is remain as faithfull as posible and, at the same time, pointing what you can win by engaging with a diferent tradition than yours. Putting to work both cultural resources acknowleging their specifitys and without confuse them. For example, Jullien develop the notion (not a western like concept but a wisdom notion he even say) of silent transformations, taking as example the work of the neo confuncian Wang Fu Zhi; he points its diferents with Western conceptualization of history (silent transformations are more usefull to think about invisible and progressive changes whether because we are so inmerse that we hardly can even notice it or because the modifications are very far away of us -if i remember correctly.) and he use this understanding to also point western, not so hegemonic, products which we can be match wich silent transformations notion, such us Lev Tolstoi's novels.
When Buddhism first arrived in the 1st century, it survived through Geyi 格义 (concept matching), 'borrowing' Daoist vocabulary like wuwei to explain Nirvana. But as you noted regarding the risk of 'confusing' resources, this almost led to Buddhism being absorbed into Daoism.
Xuanzang’s journey in the 7th century was arguably driven by the exact 'method' you described: he wanted to restore the specificity of the original Sanskrit logic. By moving away from Daoist loan-words and developing a distinct 'Buddhist Chinese' lexicon, he ensured that the two traditions remained 'faithful' to themselves.
Rereading your post i notice that maybe the faithfull translation of Tao Te Ching to Sanskrit was even trickier. I mean: okey Marga and Tao has both something to do with the way but maybe that did not finally erase all the confusion... I think the western way, Tao, Marga its actually call... Method! Meth Odos in greek! But greek way or meth odos its, as far as i know, very diferent of the chinese way or tao. The first to has to do which constructing well defined definions acording to the limits of things. And instead Tao, as far as i know, has to do which the regulation of life, managing the interplay of polarities in order to benefically promoting life.
Maybe Indians get puzzled for the faithfull translation. Maybe they thougth that they, as Indians, really know what the indian way or marga was really about and that foreigners was saying very strange things about Marga.
Its like, maybe, "the way" is like a common notion for expressing a given civilizational style. But indeed that style is diferent for each civilization.
This was very interesting to me. I appreciate the time you took to write this. I’m confused a bit by your final conclusion, however. At several places earlier in the essay you indicate that the sealed Sanskrit version was sent via envoys but never made it. It disappeared. But then, at the end you conclude, “Xuanzang’s translation theory may have been correct, but the cost of correctness was a text that nobody in India found worth keeping.” If the text disappears and very possibly in transit, how could we know that it wasn’t deemed worth keeping? This conclusion doesn’t make sense to me. Is there a record at court that the envoys entrusted with its transport were received?
Hi Tania, my conclusion here was actually meant to be more speculative rather than a literal historical tracking of the manuscript.
My argument is that when an exotic or distinct concept is translated too cleanly into a host culture's existing vocabulary, it loses its unique identity. It’s like translating 'Zen' simply as 'mindfulness,' the core concept gets absorbed and eventually fades away because it lacks a distinct brand.
I'm really interested in reading the preface regarding tooth clicking, saliva swallowing and breath regulation in English. Is there one you can recommend, or perhaps get deepseek to translate and check the results are good enough?
Also. The other document about the... what was it.. hang on.
Fodao Lunheng (集古今佛道论衡, Collected Debates on Buddhism and Daoism, Ancient and Modern), a chronicle of Buddhist-Daoist disputations compiled in 661 by the monk Daoxuan.
Does this text exist in English? Sounds very interesting.
The reason you can’t find that preface in modern versions of the Heshang Gong commentary is because it was systematically stripped out over the centuries.
In the Tang dynasty, The Dao De Jing wasn’t just a philosophy book. Early Daoists physically bound technical, ritual prefaces directly to the front of popular commentaries.
I highly recommend 识典古籍. It’s a joint project between ByteDance and Peking University that digitizes ancient Chinese classics using advanced OCR and AI punctuation models; I use it all the time.
As for 集古今佛道论衡, there is unfortunately no complete English translation available anywhere. However, on the platform, you can easily copy and paste the Chinese text into an AI translator to read it. The debate regarding the Sanskrit translation of the Dao De Jing, you can check out this direct chapter link: https://www.shidianguji.com/book/K1066/chapter/1kkt13njocphn?version=5
How refreshing to see the Chinese so civilized in their religious disputations, strong opinions and logic on both sides that didn't lead to blows.
So unlike the Abrahamic religions, ... Church councils leading to ossified doctrines determining who is orthodox and who is a heretic, inquisitions, persecutions, martyrdoms and religious wars.
I often feel that what categorize as religious conflict is primarily a byproduct of economic and material pressures, where faith serves as the convenient banner or the historical excuse. An era of openness and intellectual debate is almost always anchored in a period of economic prosperity.
A Marxist view, discounting deeply felt religious (even fanatical) feelings. Atheists and agnostics will never understand these religious nuts. You rational types will never understand what is fundamentally irrational.
or maybe the adherents of the Abrahamic religions just take their beliefs more seriously than the Buddhists, Daoists and Confucians perhaps? Seriously enough to kill, maim, torture, discriminate and persecute. After all, the Truth must be forced on non-believers and heretics who deny the Truth must be eradicated?
are you actually seriously suggesting that people who "kill maim, torture discriminate and persecute" are thus more serious in their beliefs than those who don't?
that one judges belief by the amount of killing maiming and torturing a belief system/ country/ religion/ person does?
I can't read your tone. Are you actually being serious here?
The only thing the Abrahamic God values more than His believers willing to die for Him in martyrdom, … is His believers willing to kill for Him. The patriarch Abraham was willing to kill his son Isaac (or Ishmael according to Muslims) to prove his loyalty to God. The Israelites were ordered by God to exterminate the Amelekites because they offended Him so. Being a Crusader, a Jihadis, an Inquisitor, using violence to expand the faith in this Abrahamic God is the primary calling for adherents of the Abrahamic God. Given the choice humans don’t want to kill other humans, call it a divine command and they happily start slitting throats and burn people are the stake. It can even override the highest Confucian virtue of filial piety, that between father and son, … take for example the King of Spain, Philip II … he said that if even his own son were a heretic, he’d gather the wood to burn him at the stake for heresy this affirming his commitment to the Inquisition and pleasing his Catholic God. Wouldn’t you call that taking your religion seriously Debbie? Don’t you think both Abraham and Philip II were committed to their God?
This is extremely fascinating. I have been doing research into the question of whether there was any pre-modern Chinese literary/philosophical influence on India. Do you know if the Confucian canon was ever translated into Sanskrit? Thank you.
I admire the depth and breadth you take to your writings!
Incredible story, really exposed me to something new and presented so well. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
What a shame that this translation was lost - on all sides.
One supposes that what was lacking is demonstrated by the translation room itself: if the way cannot be named, what one wants is a fellow-traveler. It is the guide and example who clarifies the content of the letter.
Your point reminds me of a history: when the Anglo-French forces breached the Old Summer Palace 圆明园 in 1860, they found the advanced artillery and delicate mechanical gifts that Lord Macartney had presented to Emperor Qianlong nearly 70 years earlier. They were sitting in a storeroom, completely untouched.
hmmm aren't they all incorrect? The Dao cannot be named.
Maybe Xuanzang was like James Legge: since he didn't want 'Tao' to be translated as 'God' or 'Logos,' he chose to translate it simply as 'the Way.
Triying to unpackage Francois Jullien "method" i think that actually the best strategy is remain as faithfull as posible and, at the same time, pointing what you can win by engaging with a diferent tradition than yours. Putting to work both cultural resources acknowleging their specifitys and without confuse them. For example, Jullien develop the notion (not a western like concept but a wisdom notion he even say) of silent transformations, taking as example the work of the neo confuncian Wang Fu Zhi; he points its diferents with Western conceptualization of history (silent transformations are more usefull to think about invisible and progressive changes whether because we are so inmerse that we hardly can even notice it or because the modifications are very far away of us -if i remember correctly.) and he use this understanding to also point western, not so hegemonic, products which we can be match wich silent transformations notion, such us Lev Tolstoi's novels.
When Buddhism first arrived in the 1st century, it survived through Geyi 格义 (concept matching), 'borrowing' Daoist vocabulary like wuwei to explain Nirvana. But as you noted regarding the risk of 'confusing' resources, this almost led to Buddhism being absorbed into Daoism.
Xuanzang’s journey in the 7th century was arguably driven by the exact 'method' you described: he wanted to restore the specificity of the original Sanskrit logic. By moving away from Daoist loan-words and developing a distinct 'Buddhist Chinese' lexicon, he ensured that the two traditions remained 'faithful' to themselves.
Rereading your post i notice that maybe the faithfull translation of Tao Te Ching to Sanskrit was even trickier. I mean: okey Marga and Tao has both something to do with the way but maybe that did not finally erase all the confusion... I think the western way, Tao, Marga its actually call... Method! Meth Odos in greek! But greek way or meth odos its, as far as i know, very diferent of the chinese way or tao. The first to has to do which constructing well defined definions acording to the limits of things. And instead Tao, as far as i know, has to do which the regulation of life, managing the interplay of polarities in order to benefically promoting life.
Maybe Indians get puzzled for the faithfull translation. Maybe they thougth that they, as Indians, really know what the indian way or marga was really about and that foreigners was saying very strange things about Marga.
Its like, maybe, "the way" is like a common notion for expressing a given civilizational style. But indeed that style is diferent for each civilization.
Sorry I confuse the world “actually” with “nowadays”, which is what i really wanted to mean.
This was very interesting to me. I appreciate the time you took to write this. I’m confused a bit by your final conclusion, however. At several places earlier in the essay you indicate that the sealed Sanskrit version was sent via envoys but never made it. It disappeared. But then, at the end you conclude, “Xuanzang’s translation theory may have been correct, but the cost of correctness was a text that nobody in India found worth keeping.” If the text disappears and very possibly in transit, how could we know that it wasn’t deemed worth keeping? This conclusion doesn’t make sense to me. Is there a record at court that the envoys entrusted with its transport were received?
Hi Tania, my conclusion here was actually meant to be more speculative rather than a literal historical tracking of the manuscript.
My argument is that when an exotic or distinct concept is translated too cleanly into a host culture's existing vocabulary, it loses its unique identity. It’s like translating 'Zen' simply as 'mindfulness,' the core concept gets absorbed and eventually fades away because it lacks a distinct brand.
I see. Thank you for getting back to me.
I'm really interested in reading the preface regarding tooth clicking, saliva swallowing and breath regulation in English. Is there one you can recommend, or perhaps get deepseek to translate and check the results are good enough?
Also. The other document about the... what was it.. hang on.
Fodao Lunheng (集古今佛道论衡, Collected Debates on Buddhism and Daoism, Ancient and Modern), a chronicle of Buddhist-Daoist disputations compiled in 661 by the monk Daoxuan.
Does this text exist in English? Sounds very interesting.
The reason you can’t find that preface in modern versions of the Heshang Gong commentary is because it was systematically stripped out over the centuries.
In the Tang dynasty, The Dao De Jing wasn’t just a philosophy book. Early Daoists physically bound technical, ritual prefaces directly to the front of popular commentaries.
If you are curious to see what those actual early Daoist rituals and breathing instructions looked like. You can check out a prime example here in the 上清太极隐注玉经宝诀 https://www.shidianguji.com/ens/book/DZ0425/chapter/DZ0425_1
I highly recommend 识典古籍. It’s a joint project between ByteDance and Peking University that digitizes ancient Chinese classics using advanced OCR and AI punctuation models; I use it all the time.
As for 集古今佛道论衡, there is unfortunately no complete English translation available anywhere. However, on the platform, you can easily copy and paste the Chinese text into an AI translator to read it. The debate regarding the Sanskrit translation of the Dao De Jing, you can check out this direct chapter link: https://www.shidianguji.com/book/K1066/chapter/1kkt13njocphn?version=5
How refreshing to see the Chinese so civilized in their religious disputations, strong opinions and logic on both sides that didn't lead to blows.
So unlike the Abrahamic religions, ... Church councils leading to ossified doctrines determining who is orthodox and who is a heretic, inquisitions, persecutions, martyrdoms and religious wars.
I often feel that what categorize as religious conflict is primarily a byproduct of economic and material pressures, where faith serves as the convenient banner or the historical excuse. An era of openness and intellectual debate is almost always anchored in a period of economic prosperity.
A Marxist view, discounting deeply felt religious (even fanatical) feelings. Atheists and agnostics will never understand these religious nuts. You rational types will never understand what is fundamentally irrational.
Because ethics is deeply embedded and practiced in Eastern traditions, while typically buried or forgotten in Western ones.
or maybe the adherents of the Abrahamic religions just take their beliefs more seriously than the Buddhists, Daoists and Confucians perhaps? Seriously enough to kill, maim, torture, discriminate and persecute. After all, the Truth must be forced on non-believers and heretics who deny the Truth must be eradicated?
are you actually seriously suggesting that people who "kill maim, torture discriminate and persecute" are thus more serious in their beliefs than those who don't?
that one judges belief by the amount of killing maiming and torturing a belief system/ country/ religion/ person does?
I can't read your tone. Are you actually being serious here?
The only thing the Abrahamic God values more than His believers willing to die for Him in martyrdom, … is His believers willing to kill for Him. The patriarch Abraham was willing to kill his son Isaac (or Ishmael according to Muslims) to prove his loyalty to God. The Israelites were ordered by God to exterminate the Amelekites because they offended Him so. Being a Crusader, a Jihadis, an Inquisitor, using violence to expand the faith in this Abrahamic God is the primary calling for adherents of the Abrahamic God. Given the choice humans don’t want to kill other humans, call it a divine command and they happily start slitting throats and burn people are the stake. It can even override the highest Confucian virtue of filial piety, that between father and son, … take for example the King of Spain, Philip II … he said that if even his own son were a heretic, he’d gather the wood to burn him at the stake for heresy this affirming his commitment to the Inquisition and pleasing his Catholic God. Wouldn’t you call that taking your religion seriously Debbie? Don’t you think both Abraham and Philip II were committed to their God?
I would say, Hooly, that any religion that requires it's adherents to kill and be killed is a huge part of what is wrong with the world today.
Moreover, you give examples of parents killing their own children. I would simply call that a crime.
John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son …”
Are you accusing God of being a criminal?
The West’s geographic division gave more opportunities for sects to dominate some areas and not others.
This is extremely fascinating. I have been doing research into the question of whether there was any pre-modern Chinese literary/philosophical influence on India. Do you know if the Confucian canon was ever translated into Sanskrit? Thank you.
My answer to the last question is:
Do Both, sequentially stagger the transmission and then let devotees decipher after a certain maturity.