Another great article Jing Yu. While Huanglao Daoism adopted the DDJ as a political guide, it is also generally accepted that originally it was an apophatic text that was probably chanted by early proto-daoists.
I agree though, Laozi and Zhuangzi are too different kettles of fish. Although the linkage began with Sima Tan and Sima Qian; Zhuangzi although perhaps referencing the Laozi did not ever annotate or comment on it, showing, as you say, his independent thinking.
BTW I'm really enjoying your Wenyan Decoded. Any chance that you will compile them all at some stage?
Not sure if it is a correction, but "8-12...spokes make the wheel, it is the center hole that makes it useful." In other words. (Saying "the space between" doesn't work as well.)
Similar to "..walls and roof make a room, doors and windows make it useful, therefore value comes from what is there. Usefulness from what is absent."
Have the sense that if western folks have not yet, they will one day appreciate Zhuangzi, his expressions pretty accurately reflect what a lot of folks think about, can’t articulate
Dont really sure that we could label Lao Zi as methaphysician or just a governement advisor. Rather I think he is deeply interested in promoting an efficacious unfolding of things, with indeed i think its pretty the same business of Zhuang Zhi, maybe the latter live in a context in which governement based harmonious and efficacious promotion of life seemed very dificult or almost imposible
And i think you maybe are not properly accounting for another important element: the school of legalism, which according to Francois Jullien could be understood as loss of flexibility or "procesuability" in the beneficial promotion of life in the world with its at the core of Ancient Chinese thought. So maybe Zhuang Zhi was not far away of Lao Zhi but of legalist school account of Lao Zhi. I dont really know much of chinese history but Tang and Song dinasties do not seem to me really as "legalistic" or despotic regimes.
Totally agree. I think most of the ideas (not just Daoism) we encounter today were heavily curated, edited, and restructured by later eras, yet presented as the originals. The Huang-Lao tradition is clear evidence of how Daoism and Legalism became bound together. We can reasonably deduce that the Laozi was essentially 'hijacked' by Legalist thinkers as an instrument of statecraft. In this perspective, the later synthesis of Laozi and Zhuangzi might restore a shared worldview they both possessed.
I love your explanations and translations. Would it be possible to mention the lines or places of the quotes you are translating so I can look them up more easily for comparison.
Another great article Jing Yu. While Huanglao Daoism adopted the DDJ as a political guide, it is also generally accepted that originally it was an apophatic text that was probably chanted by early proto-daoists.
I agree though, Laozi and Zhuangzi are too different kettles of fish. Although the linkage began with Sima Tan and Sima Qian; Zhuangzi although perhaps referencing the Laozi did not ever annotate or comment on it, showing, as you say, his independent thinking.
BTW I'm really enjoying your Wenyan Decoded. Any chance that you will compile them all at some stage?
Thanks, Debbie. Viewing early Daoism through an apophatic lens is a really interesting point, I'll look into it further.
Regarding Wenyan Decoded, yes, I plan to compile them. I'm currently deciding on the best format and hope to roll it out soon.
Thanks, Debbie. I agree with the wish for a compilation. And I learned a new word, "apophatic"!! ;-)
Not sure if it is a correction, but "8-12...spokes make the wheel, it is the center hole that makes it useful." In other words. (Saying "the space between" doesn't work as well.)
Similar to "..walls and roof make a room, doors and windows make it useful, therefore value comes from what is there. Usefulness from what is absent."
Thanks for pointing that out! I misunderstood the spatial imagery of wu here. It indeed refers to the central hollow where the axle fits.
Have the sense that if western folks have not yet, they will one day appreciate Zhuangzi, his expressions pretty accurately reflect what a lot of folks think about, can’t articulate
Dont really sure that we could label Lao Zi as methaphysician or just a governement advisor. Rather I think he is deeply interested in promoting an efficacious unfolding of things, with indeed i think its pretty the same business of Zhuang Zhi, maybe the latter live in a context in which governement based harmonious and efficacious promotion of life seemed very dificult or almost imposible
And i think you maybe are not properly accounting for another important element: the school of legalism, which according to Francois Jullien could be understood as loss of flexibility or "procesuability" in the beneficial promotion of life in the world with its at the core of Ancient Chinese thought. So maybe Zhuang Zhi was not far away of Lao Zhi but of legalist school account of Lao Zhi. I dont really know much of chinese history but Tang and Song dinasties do not seem to me really as "legalistic" or despotic regimes.
Totally agree. I think most of the ideas (not just Daoism) we encounter today were heavily curated, edited, and restructured by later eras, yet presented as the originals. The Huang-Lao tradition is clear evidence of how Daoism and Legalism became bound together. We can reasonably deduce that the Laozi was essentially 'hijacked' by Legalist thinkers as an instrument of statecraft. In this perspective, the later synthesis of Laozi and Zhuangzi might restore a shared worldview they both possessed.
I love your explanations and translations. Would it be possible to mention the lines or places of the quotes you are translating so I can look them up more easily for comparison.
Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve just updated the article with exact chapter and section references.
Thanks!
To say I learned a lot is the understatement of the year. What a 2026 it's been!