I’ve appreciated several of your recent articles. I grew up within the context of “Western Christianity,” which, breaking from the roots of the original Church in the East, developed into Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. (The Nestorians broke with the original Church just about 200 years before reaching China.) After receiving a degree in secular Western religious studies and a masters from a Protestant seminary, I found the Eastern Orthodox Church. I’m now a priest in the ancient church of Antioch of Syria, describes in the New Testament. Ancient Christianity in the East is quite different than its later Western development. Theology for us is not religious philosophy. (This confusion came with the rise of scholasticism in the West.) We have a strong sense of li as a virtue. It is relational with regard to one other and the heavenly reality within a life uniting heaven and earth. The “Tradition” is an unchanging way passed down generation to generation as a lifestyle, not merely as a book of Scripture or lists of religious ideas. The Faith for us is experiential, not academic. Indeed, doctrine are signs marking a path, but knowing where signs are isn’t the same as walking the path. From an Orthodox perspective, the Chinese classics make more sense to me with regard to practical living - not just in the world of ideas - than would have probably been true if I had encountered them earlier.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I learned a great deal from it.
What stayed with me most was your description of theology as lived practice rather than an abstract system. It gave me a new intuition for why “Christianity” can feel meaningfully different in the East and the West, even when people use similar words.
Reading your comment also nudged me to rethink my own question about Confucianism. In the Song–Ming tradition, lixue (理学) offers a powerful, more metaphysical vocabulary for explaining the classics, while the Lu–Wang line (陆王心学) pushes back by relocating the “test” of truth to the heart–mind (心) and moral cultivation, where understanding is verified in lived experience rather than in conceptual architecture.
Maybe this is a recurring tension in many traditions: how to hold together doctrine/theory and the practice of daily life, knowing the signposts versus walking the path.
I’m also curious: when you say you resonate with li as a virtue, is there a term or concept in your Christian/Orthodox vocabulary that feels closest to what li is doing here?
An interesting aspect of Eastern Orthodox Christianity is the focus on the heart. In the West, the rational mind is supreme (“I think, therefore I am”) and the heart is metaphorically spoken of as a place of emotion and passion. In the Eastern Orthodox Way, the center of the human being is not the rational mind, but the heart, a “spiritual intellect.” With the rational mind, we perform research, think about ideas, develop theories and models. The heart directly knows reality, including the heavenly aspect of reality. So, one can know ideas *about* God/Heaven, which is religious philosophy, but only know God personally - directly - with the heart.
As an illustration, in the West people talk of philosophical proofs for the existence of God. I served as a priest of a professor of philosophy at Rice University. He noted that if he arrived home and his wife announced that she had five proofs for his existence, then something was wrong with their relationship! She didn’t need rational concepts and arguments to know he existed. She knew him directly as his wife.
Heart and mind are used almost interchangeably since the intellect is associated with the heart as the rationality is associated the biological brain. So, a “theologian” for us is one who knows God by experience through cultivation and prayer, not a PhD. This is also why the East resists academic philosophical speculation as the doctrine doesn’t develop, whereas Western Christianity has changed and morphed as the result of such speculation.
I reached out to a Chinese scholar years ago who wrote about the Chinese concept of heart as mind. It fascinated me that this was present in Chinese thought too. Many people may misunderstand ancient Christian texts because reference to the “mind” is not the mind we think of in the West. It’s not referring to logical reasoning, but a mind only clarified by a path of virtue.
It’s too much to go into here, but the significance of li and the virtues involves cultivating/healing oneself. This relates to the nature of the human being, which would take some explaining. I find some correspondence with Mengzi, but also some relevance in Xunzi.
A good summary of a virtuous Path, which is a therapeutic path of virtue, is in Part 1 of the ancient text of the Didache. (Translation here: https://legacyicons.com/content/didache.pdf)
Particularly, with regard to li, unlike present in many contemporary later forms of Christianity, including forms active in Chinese communities, we have very particular ways of worshipping according to the ancient 2,000 year old Tradition. What we do in the temple daily, weekly, annually, and the weddings, funeral rites, etc. are proscribed. We honor the saints, including over 200 Chinese saints, as our ancestors. But, it’s not just about formal liturgies in the temple. It’s about interpersonal relationships daily. Attention to little things form foundations for large things. If someone greets me as a priest formally, they kiss my hand. Two priests embrace and kiss each other’s hand. If I greet a bishop, who is of higher rank, I kiss his hand. I bless incense and offer it, but if a bishop is present, he blesses it for me to offer. If twelve priests need to form a line, we have an order of who is first to last. The ancient Church has always had hierarchy, and it’s not about a power structure, but a filial order. My relationship with the bishop is of filial obedience as a son to a father. This order is not legalistic or intended as external, but when practiced with inner sincerity, this life cultivates and preserves humility, obedience, and reverence. The West has become quite informal, and sees order as stuffy and legalistically rigid, and, at least in America, sees any obedience as externally limiting rather than cultivating good things within. Many Western Christians prize spontaneity over a way that has been lived for 2,000 years generation to generation.
Now, we do see all that we do as more than ritual with a psychological or social function. It is, rather, a participation in life in which heaven and earth meet. It is the natural order, but also participates in an unseen reality beyond. It is indeed focused in the otherworldly, but that “heavenly kingdom” is a divine experience within that is ever-present now, not just future, and at work in the smallest aspects of every-day family, work, and social life.
Forgive the many words. I’m not known for brevity, but this is probably the short version.
Confucian principles are, as you say, a foundation. In my opinion.
One aspect that you don't cover, but which is an extension of ritual, is the embodiment aspect where the body itself is anchored in the principles of Chi and energy flow, Tai Chi, Chinese medicine and acupuncture. These embodiment practices form a physiological kinetic articulated logic and ground the intellectual framework in a way that surpasses anything from the western traditions, as far as I am aware. While the heavenly mandate does eventually arrive, as you outlined, it is adjacent to both the cultural understanding of Chi as a cosmic force of order and justice, as well as the ultimate authorisation of the emperor's position.
Religions tend to work from above towards the bottom/ foundation, except perhaps for Hinduism which is so diverse and almost overpopulated with Gods and deities, but where the vibe on the streets are rather chaotic.
Chinese culture seems extremely well anchored, no matter what anyone wants to categorise it as.
I’m curious to hear more about what you mean by 'well anchored', meaning resilient, or perhaps just socially consistent?
Definitely that the culture feels deeply grounded, but I would argue that 'anchor' has different hooks. Confucianism certainly dominates the social order and daily etiquette. But when it comes to the body and the 'philosophical' side (like the Qi you mentioned), that is traditionally the domain of Daoism. And for many, Buddhism provides yet another layer/alternative regarding the body.
In practice, though, these traditions have become so exchangeable over centuries that they are often hard to distinguish
You ask a question that could require a lengthy response, if I were to drop into the details. But, I think you get my meaning in your first paragraph. Resilient and socially structured from the ground up. A strong foundation from which to build.
I also think your last paragraph about the intertwined nature of the three seems to be a structurally interesting point. Compared to the monotheistic western development where Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have gone in different directions, the Chinese trifecta has merged and mixed. Historically, both cultures have gone astray along the way in various ways, like foot binding, or the cultural revolution of Mao in the East. Conversely, the inquisitions (Witch hunts) and religious wars over the name of God among the monotheists of the west. But historical arguments interest me less than future outlooks, and it is this direction where I see great potential for East and West to be complimentary opposites. The East with an almost secular grounded virtue based common good, and the West with a potential for a virtuous soul centered orientation on becoming one's best self, mostly expressed secularly as "Love and Freedom (of expression)". One can ground while the other can encourage a poetic self improvement beyond Filial piety.
I am not sure if I really express the potential I perceive accurately, but it is a hopeful outlook, I suppose.
Also, on the Qi, or Chi, and Feng Shui front, these physical and bio-political themes, seemingly connect a person with both physical anatomical oriented programming and geographical orientation and articulate into the natural world much like western pagan traditions. Foucault and his "birth of the clinic" provide a more detailed academic framework for comparison about how the body is mapped out and ritualised in a broader social context.
Your questions: Is Confucianism Educational- Political - Ethical - Philosophical …. ?
My answer: It does contain and/or pertain to all four.
The West (Classical Greece) has a work similar to the analects, though it is different in form and pacing, it contains notes from a master/teacher. It too can be read as a treatise for all four categories. The Republic, by Plato, he was a poet/play from a governmental family. Western Educators over history have studied The Republic; in has served as an inspiration/blue print for how we practice and design institutions, norms, conventions, and wisdom teachings. In my early university years I analyzed The Republic considering it as treatise in Education-Politics/Government-Ethics, my professor was a leading expert at that time (so I am confident that what I say is true. (However, very few have studied it with such a focus-if at all.). I hope this connects our bridge of understanding. Thank you for reaching from your China.🙏💛
Thank you, Carrie. I love the parallel you drew between the Analects and The Republic. Having studied some Classics myself, I completely agree about the structural similarities between Western and Chinese classical traditions.
However, the tradition of Chinese Classical Studies (古典学) was somewhat interrupted in the 1920s. Its holistic function was dismantled and split into separate departments—philosophy, politics, literature, and history—leaving the integrated study of 'Classics' as a rather peripheral field.
I really enjoyed this conversation! Your comment has inspired me to perhaps write something about the broader concept of Classics rather than just focusing on Confucianism or individual schools. Thank you!
I look forward to learning more of the analects and Confucianism, JingYu. Much of Chinese studies resonates with me, intuitively. As does Plato. There is a metaphysical aspect to Plato too. Different generations and schools adopt and interpret his work/ideas to serve their own ideas/agendas. Our societies are not that much different. People are unique individuals who share this Earth and a human experience. Our suffering is ordinary, meaning it is a part of human life. However, within my flesh and blood skin, MY suffering is still SUFFERING! Carrie🙏💛
I enjoy your writings! Confucianism permeates into much of live in East Asia and Southeast Asia - Malaysia, where I'm from included. It's hard to dissect it into neatly packaged categories.
Very informative and insightful; while I know too little to judge Confucian-ism or even offer an opinion one way or the other, I do describe myself as examining culture.
Something stands out as a possible pattern - whatever an individual thinks Confucian-ism is, or Taoism, or Buddhism for that matter, much energy and words are spent performing contortions to state what THEY BELIEVE the answer is.
That’s a wonderful time to return to it. I’ve always felt the Analects read differently depending on what kind of year one is entering. Most Chinese learn passages (sometimes just recite mechanically) from the Analects from kindergarten; the same lines yield different meanings as you grow.
Part of the impulse for writing this came from my own confusion, even growing up Chinese. Confucianism is everywhere in daily life, but I realized I didn’t have a clean vocabulary to explain what it is in simple terms, not quite religion, not quite philosophy, not quite politics either.
More broadly, I’ve been drawn to these “primer” questions about China: things that shape everyday life very deeply, but are rarely named or explained.
I’ve appreciated several of your recent articles. I grew up within the context of “Western Christianity,” which, breaking from the roots of the original Church in the East, developed into Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. (The Nestorians broke with the original Church just about 200 years before reaching China.) After receiving a degree in secular Western religious studies and a masters from a Protestant seminary, I found the Eastern Orthodox Church. I’m now a priest in the ancient church of Antioch of Syria, describes in the New Testament. Ancient Christianity in the East is quite different than its later Western development. Theology for us is not religious philosophy. (This confusion came with the rise of scholasticism in the West.) We have a strong sense of li as a virtue. It is relational with regard to one other and the heavenly reality within a life uniting heaven and earth. The “Tradition” is an unchanging way passed down generation to generation as a lifestyle, not merely as a book of Scripture or lists of religious ideas. The Faith for us is experiential, not academic. Indeed, doctrine are signs marking a path, but knowing where signs are isn’t the same as walking the path. From an Orthodox perspective, the Chinese classics make more sense to me with regard to practical living - not just in the world of ideas - than would have probably been true if I had encountered them earlier.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I learned a great deal from it.
What stayed with me most was your description of theology as lived practice rather than an abstract system. It gave me a new intuition for why “Christianity” can feel meaningfully different in the East and the West, even when people use similar words.
Reading your comment also nudged me to rethink my own question about Confucianism. In the Song–Ming tradition, lixue (理学) offers a powerful, more metaphysical vocabulary for explaining the classics, while the Lu–Wang line (陆王心学) pushes back by relocating the “test” of truth to the heart–mind (心) and moral cultivation, where understanding is verified in lived experience rather than in conceptual architecture.
Maybe this is a recurring tension in many traditions: how to hold together doctrine/theory and the practice of daily life, knowing the signposts versus walking the path.
I’m also curious: when you say you resonate with li as a virtue, is there a term or concept in your Christian/Orthodox vocabulary that feels closest to what li is doing here?
An interesting aspect of Eastern Orthodox Christianity is the focus on the heart. In the West, the rational mind is supreme (“I think, therefore I am”) and the heart is metaphorically spoken of as a place of emotion and passion. In the Eastern Orthodox Way, the center of the human being is not the rational mind, but the heart, a “spiritual intellect.” With the rational mind, we perform research, think about ideas, develop theories and models. The heart directly knows reality, including the heavenly aspect of reality. So, one can know ideas *about* God/Heaven, which is religious philosophy, but only know God personally - directly - with the heart.
As an illustration, in the West people talk of philosophical proofs for the existence of God. I served as a priest of a professor of philosophy at Rice University. He noted that if he arrived home and his wife announced that she had five proofs for his existence, then something was wrong with their relationship! She didn’t need rational concepts and arguments to know he existed. She knew him directly as his wife.
Heart and mind are used almost interchangeably since the intellect is associated with the heart as the rationality is associated the biological brain. So, a “theologian” for us is one who knows God by experience through cultivation and prayer, not a PhD. This is also why the East resists academic philosophical speculation as the doctrine doesn’t develop, whereas Western Christianity has changed and morphed as the result of such speculation.
I reached out to a Chinese scholar years ago who wrote about the Chinese concept of heart as mind. It fascinated me that this was present in Chinese thought too. Many people may misunderstand ancient Christian texts because reference to the “mind” is not the mind we think of in the West. It’s not referring to logical reasoning, but a mind only clarified by a path of virtue.
It’s too much to go into here, but the significance of li and the virtues involves cultivating/healing oneself. This relates to the nature of the human being, which would take some explaining. I find some correspondence with Mengzi, but also some relevance in Xunzi.
A good summary of a virtuous Path, which is a therapeutic path of virtue, is in Part 1 of the ancient text of the Didache. (Translation here: https://legacyicons.com/content/didache.pdf)
Particularly, with regard to li, unlike present in many contemporary later forms of Christianity, including forms active in Chinese communities, we have very particular ways of worshipping according to the ancient 2,000 year old Tradition. What we do in the temple daily, weekly, annually, and the weddings, funeral rites, etc. are proscribed. We honor the saints, including over 200 Chinese saints, as our ancestors. But, it’s not just about formal liturgies in the temple. It’s about interpersonal relationships daily. Attention to little things form foundations for large things. If someone greets me as a priest formally, they kiss my hand. Two priests embrace and kiss each other’s hand. If I greet a bishop, who is of higher rank, I kiss his hand. I bless incense and offer it, but if a bishop is present, he blesses it for me to offer. If twelve priests need to form a line, we have an order of who is first to last. The ancient Church has always had hierarchy, and it’s not about a power structure, but a filial order. My relationship with the bishop is of filial obedience as a son to a father. This order is not legalistic or intended as external, but when practiced with inner sincerity, this life cultivates and preserves humility, obedience, and reverence. The West has become quite informal, and sees order as stuffy and legalistically rigid, and, at least in America, sees any obedience as externally limiting rather than cultivating good things within. Many Western Christians prize spontaneity over a way that has been lived for 2,000 years generation to generation.
Now, we do see all that we do as more than ritual with a psychological or social function. It is, rather, a participation in life in which heaven and earth meet. It is the natural order, but also participates in an unseen reality beyond. It is indeed focused in the otherworldly, but that “heavenly kingdom” is a divine experience within that is ever-present now, not just future, and at work in the smallest aspects of every-day family, work, and social life.
Forgive the many words. I’m not known for brevity, but this is probably the short version.
Confucian principles are, as you say, a foundation. In my opinion.
One aspect that you don't cover, but which is an extension of ritual, is the embodiment aspect where the body itself is anchored in the principles of Chi and energy flow, Tai Chi, Chinese medicine and acupuncture. These embodiment practices form a physiological kinetic articulated logic and ground the intellectual framework in a way that surpasses anything from the western traditions, as far as I am aware. While the heavenly mandate does eventually arrive, as you outlined, it is adjacent to both the cultural understanding of Chi as a cosmic force of order and justice, as well as the ultimate authorisation of the emperor's position.
Religions tend to work from above towards the bottom/ foundation, except perhaps for Hinduism which is so diverse and almost overpopulated with Gods and deities, but where the vibe on the streets are rather chaotic.
Chinese culture seems extremely well anchored, no matter what anyone wants to categorise it as.
I’m curious to hear more about what you mean by 'well anchored', meaning resilient, or perhaps just socially consistent?
Definitely that the culture feels deeply grounded, but I would argue that 'anchor' has different hooks. Confucianism certainly dominates the social order and daily etiquette. But when it comes to the body and the 'philosophical' side (like the Qi you mentioned), that is traditionally the domain of Daoism. And for many, Buddhism provides yet another layer/alternative regarding the body.
In practice, though, these traditions have become so exchangeable over centuries that they are often hard to distinguish
You ask a question that could require a lengthy response, if I were to drop into the details. But, I think you get my meaning in your first paragraph. Resilient and socially structured from the ground up. A strong foundation from which to build.
I also think your last paragraph about the intertwined nature of the three seems to be a structurally interesting point. Compared to the monotheistic western development where Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have gone in different directions, the Chinese trifecta has merged and mixed. Historically, both cultures have gone astray along the way in various ways, like foot binding, or the cultural revolution of Mao in the East. Conversely, the inquisitions (Witch hunts) and religious wars over the name of God among the monotheists of the west. But historical arguments interest me less than future outlooks, and it is this direction where I see great potential for East and West to be complimentary opposites. The East with an almost secular grounded virtue based common good, and the West with a potential for a virtuous soul centered orientation on becoming one's best self, mostly expressed secularly as "Love and Freedom (of expression)". One can ground while the other can encourage a poetic self improvement beyond Filial piety.
I am not sure if I really express the potential I perceive accurately, but it is a hopeful outlook, I suppose.
Does that answer your question?
Also, on the Qi, or Chi, and Feng Shui front, these physical and bio-political themes, seemingly connect a person with both physical anatomical oriented programming and geographical orientation and articulate into the natural world much like western pagan traditions. Foucault and his "birth of the clinic" provide a more detailed academic framework for comparison about how the body is mapped out and ritualised in a broader social context.
Your questions: Is Confucianism Educational- Political - Ethical - Philosophical …. ?
My answer: It does contain and/or pertain to all four.
The West (Classical Greece) has a work similar to the analects, though it is different in form and pacing, it contains notes from a master/teacher. It too can be read as a treatise for all four categories. The Republic, by Plato, he was a poet/play from a governmental family. Western Educators over history have studied The Republic; in has served as an inspiration/blue print for how we practice and design institutions, norms, conventions, and wisdom teachings. In my early university years I analyzed The Republic considering it as treatise in Education-Politics/Government-Ethics, my professor was a leading expert at that time (so I am confident that what I say is true. (However, very few have studied it with such a focus-if at all.). I hope this connects our bridge of understanding. Thank you for reaching from your China.🙏💛
Thank you, Carrie. I love the parallel you drew between the Analects and The Republic. Having studied some Classics myself, I completely agree about the structural similarities between Western and Chinese classical traditions.
However, the tradition of Chinese Classical Studies (古典学) was somewhat interrupted in the 1920s. Its holistic function was dismantled and split into separate departments—philosophy, politics, literature, and history—leaving the integrated study of 'Classics' as a rather peripheral field.
I really enjoyed this conversation! Your comment has inspired me to perhaps write something about the broader concept of Classics rather than just focusing on Confucianism or individual schools. Thank you!
I look forward to learning more of the analects and Confucianism, JingYu. Much of Chinese studies resonates with me, intuitively. As does Plato. There is a metaphysical aspect to Plato too. Different generations and schools adopt and interpret his work/ideas to serve their own ideas/agendas. Our societies are not that much different. People are unique individuals who share this Earth and a human experience. Our suffering is ordinary, meaning it is a part of human life. However, within my flesh and blood skin, MY suffering is still SUFFERING! Carrie🙏💛
I enjoy your writings! Confucianism permeates into much of live in East Asia and Southeast Asia - Malaysia, where I'm from included. It's hard to dissect it into neatly packaged categories.
Exactly, I feel in many places it survives less as doctrine than as habit. Categories arrive later; practice comes first.
It certainly feels like it's expressed across Chinese education and social structure that can be described as an orthopraxy.
Very informative and insightful; while I know too little to judge Confucian-ism or even offer an opinion one way or the other, I do describe myself as examining culture.
Something stands out as a possible pattern - whatever an individual thinks Confucian-ism is, or Taoism, or Buddhism for that matter, much energy and words are spent performing contortions to state what THEY BELIEVE the answer is.
such a helpful post, thank you for writing it!
Thank you. This wonderful and clear writing comes at a perfect moment. I re-read the Analects with the start of the new year. Thank you again.
That’s a wonderful time to return to it. I’ve always felt the Analects read differently depending on what kind of year one is entering. Most Chinese learn passages (sometimes just recite mechanically) from the Analects from kindergarten; the same lines yield different meanings as you grow.
This was brilliant. Thanks!
Thank you, I’m glad it resonated.
Excellent explainer! Thanks.
Appreciate that.
Part of the impulse for writing this came from my own confusion, even growing up Chinese. Confucianism is everywhere in daily life, but I realized I didn’t have a clean vocabulary to explain what it is in simple terms, not quite religion, not quite philosophy, not quite politics either.
More broadly, I’ve been drawn to these “primer” questions about China: things that shape everyday life very deeply, but are rarely named or explained.